EGR und Drossel reinigung

[Math]

Hallo,

 

(Mein Deutsch is nicht all zu gut.)

Ich dachte ich sehe mir mal den zustand der EGR ventile an und wenn mach ich die sauber. Aber es war mir zu schwierig dies komplett zu demontieren. Ich hab nur den Luftschlauch zu EGR gelockert und dacht ich sehe schon die EGR....das war wahrscheinlich aber die Drossel zum abstellen des motor? Stimmt das? Dies war allerdings ziemlich dreckig und ich hab dies mit Bremsenreiniger und WD-40 aufgesprüht und mit einigen lappen den schmutz weggenommen. Luftschlauch wieder angeschlossen.

Wenn ich das auto starten wollte klappte dies nicht sofort, nach 2, 3 mal motor startet aber am anfang fur 2 -3 sekunden mit einem furchtbares lautes Geräusch, wie Eisen auf Eisen. Der motor lauft danach wider wie am sonsten. Kann mir jemand viellecht erklaren was hier passiert is und ob ich den motor vielleicht schade haben zugefügt? Danke euch.

Bearbeitet 17. November 2016 von Math

[McFly]

Maybe your English is better?

 

You probably flooded the intake manifold with your cleaning fluids, and once starting the engine they were sucked into the engine killing the lubriation film between pistons and cylinder walls...

 

If that damaged something the damage is done anyway. So keep on going as long as it sounds nominal now.

 

BTW: It is quite easy to disassemble the "throttle valve", behind that you would find the EGR. However, I'd rather simply install a new one instead of cleaning it.

 

Cheers, Michael

 

Edit: Link to pictures, Click me!

Bearbeitet 17. November 2016 von McFly

[Math]

McFly....you make me shiver.....what exactly do u mean when u say damage is done....should i notice something in driving the car...los of compression etc.. or what to expect? is this really bad news?? Thought WD-40 is lubricant to and brake cleaner evaporates..?

Bearbeitet 17. November 2016 von Math

[McFly]

I have no dea what to expect. You were asking for theories about the source for your nasty metallic sounds. With rather thin WD-40 and brake cleaner I could easily imagine direct contact between piston and cylinder. So a little extra wear and tear...how much? No idea. But as it seem to sound nominal now I wouldn't spend too much time thinking about it.

 

Cheers, Michael

[Math]

" I wouldn't spend too much time thinking about it."... and maybe not to worry to much? I dont really notice any difference now..still going strong, starts immediately and shuts off nice to. No loss of compression i guess....oh can a compression test give more insight of possible damage done?

[McFly]

Well, what would be the course of actions if you would really measure a somewhat 10% to 20% lower compression? New engine? For sure not!

 

And for the test you would need to take out the glow plugs with a likely potential to break them. So, don't worry, just drive the car. I'd just maybe have a closer look at an elevated oil consumption, and that's it. In the unlikely event that it starts to be higher as before, use a thicker oil and never spray WD-40 and tons of brake cleaner into the intake manifold again!

 

Cheers, Michael

[Math]

that sounds more comforting.

So u think it hasn't done that much of a damage? and this possible elevated oil consumption is possible due to possible extra wear and tear? brrrrr

I read all kinds of horror stories on the Internet...cars with motor destroyed/locked up after driving with little or no lubrication, but thats not the case here i guess.... We own the car for a couple of monts now and are very pleased with it...but how does it go ...learn from your 'mistakes'? thank u anyhow

[Math]

Are there any other possible scenarios?

[Pater B]

If you flood the intake manifold with brake cleaner you may just have had some sort of uncontrolled combustion as there would be lots of additional fuel/combustible gases in the engine which may ignite inside the cylinder before the compression stroke was finished. Hence the unhealthy sounds. If it now runs well i wouldn't worry much.

 

BTW, when cleaning engine parts from the intake path - better take them off before cleaning...

 

Regarding oil consumption: mileage?

[MartinB82]

Hi Math,

 

by chance you tried to put it in the reverse clutch? Could sound ugly too sometimes .

 

However the theory of Michael (McFly) seems plausible: The alcohol additives in 'Bremsenreiniger' evaporate to some extend, but probably some still reached the combustion chamber, there 'breaking' the oilfilm on the Cylinderchamber walls.

 

This would explain first the trouble in starting the car the first time after the cleansing and second the mentionend ugly metal on metal sound.

 

There will be some more wear on the zylinder head gasket and zylinder chamber walls, which will likely result in a (slightly?) higher wear on the zylinder head gasket.

 

After 200-500k km they usually need to be changed anyway. 'No big deal' only it does cost quite some money for the entire engine needs to be disasembled, which ist time consuming and therefore expensive.

 

Extensive wear of the zylinder head gasket is normaly noticed by an increased oil consumption (and/or black smoke billowing from the exhaust), which will cause dificulty with the next exhaust gas check (Abgasuntersuchung / AU) at the TÜV.

 

But as Micheal says: It is as it is. Not much you can do at the moment (unless you want to spend a lot of money without use). Besides that, for inspection a more or less major disasembly of the engine would be required, with the risk of something else going fowl.

 

So don't worry for the moment, not much you can do, keep your ears pricked and an eye on the oil-level. If your lucky there is no real harm done.

 

 

In the case of bad luck / serious damage the following options exist:

a) Disassembly of the Engine, renewal of the zylinder head gasket, maybe the zylinder head itself and maybe polishing the zylinderchamber walls.

b.) Simply get an used spare engine in good condition and have that one installed instead. Might be the easier (and cheaper?) solution.

 

Only time will tell ;-)

Cheers Martin

Bearbeitet 17. November 2016 von MartinB82

[Math]

Pater B.

 

Thank u for your answer to...

This also sounds likely. Especially cause the car seems to run like before.

 

a. But I wonder in case (pre-ignite) could it do any (engine) damage?

b. I had problems taking off fresh air duct so I stopped there and when on cleaning the intake manifold flap still mouted, but you're absolutely right better take them off completely

c. oil consumption: mileage today 181k km. But we own the car for 6 months now and didnt make that much milage altogether 2200 km, oil consumption 0...and i wanna keep it that way for a long time...all together i guess i wasnt thinking when i started the car...lack of experience, but I am quite shocked when i read all the 'horror' scenarios, giving me a headache...

 

I wonder (Correct me please if i'm wrong but im trying myself also to figure this out) first 2 times i started the car, engine it crancked but didnt fire so at this point i already sucked in remaining wd40 and brake cleaner? Suppose it then cleaned of the "remaining oil" on the walls and the when i crank it again dont engine and cilinder walls get lubricated again, i mean as soon as it starts to crank starts lubrication also? then it wouldnt have stand dry for a moment now would it? Then i also guess there was still some remains of wd40 and brakeclaner left which would indeed cause additional fuel/combustible gases as you Pater B mentioned?

I read about ether and starting fluid being real bad stuff cause these dont lubricate at all...wd40 on the other hand still does a little claims someone else and therfore less harmless????

Bearbeitet 18. November 2016 von Math

[Math]

Hello MartinB82 to u 2 and thanks for youor response...

 

 

a. i never start my car in any gear only neutral

b. could you explain exactly what u mean when u say "... explain first the trouble in starting the car the first time after the cleaning...? How can breaking' the oilfilm prevent the engine starting?

c. explain please why "some more wear on the zylinder head gasket and zylinder chamber walls, which will likely result in a (slightly?) higher wear on the zylinder head gasket...? wear on the zylinder head gasket?? this i really dont get...

d. Again u say "..Extensive wear of the zylinder head gasket is normaly noticed by an increased oil consumption (and/or black smoke billowing from the exhaust).."? I always thougt that if a head gasket is blown oil would leak outside the block or inside the cooling fluid or cooling fluid inside the combustion chamber giving lots of white smoke. And when youre burning oil it colours blue..black in case of to little air or to much fuel mixture? Correct me please if im wrong?

[Pater B]

Some professionals won't advise you to use starter fluids etc (aka brake cleaner) to start your fuel-starved diesel engine because it may sound stressed afterwards... but as log as you don't do it on a regular basis i'd say its harmless.

 

Your engine might just have been sucking in too little air/oxygen to start on the first few cranks because there was too much cleaner in the system - after the mixture thinned down things went bang....

[Math]

things went bang....that sounds frightning, but do u think any damage occured? I mean i dont notice any difference (yet)?

[herr_tichy]

Friend of mine killed the head gasket using brake fluid on her running T3 Diesel Doka.

 

Anyway, we can't give you any more insight than you already have:

 

 

• Was not a smart thing to do.
  
• Things tend to sound ugly if you do it anyway.
  
• Things may be fucked now or maybe not, depends.
  

So, if you really want peace of mind, you'd have to disassemble the engine and give everything a proper inspection. You probably don't want to do that, so you'll drive it until it decidedly shows symptoms of damage, then you'll disassemble and fix it. Maybe the latter will never happen. What else would you like to hear?

[Math]

yeah ok, i panic, thats not so strange now is it with all the worst case scenarios i read...?? and people sometimes do stupid things dont u? the internet is full with stories and vids of guys pouring in ether, wd-40 and so on to start their engine, one saying its harmless others call it idiot....I now know better. my engine wasn't running..i started it...if that makes any difference. And im curious what kind of symptons people like u mean when they say things like "..symptoms of damage"? dont you and everybody else? I just try to figure out what exactly happens when u do things like that what goes wrong and if things and what things can be broken in case maybe there is someone who experienced the same besides your friend with the gasket? for now i dont notice any big difference in driving the car, maybe...but could be my imagination a tiny little bit loss of compression? thanks anyhow, i get the message anyway..I will wait and see and then come back on it again in a >1000 km to report my findings...like oil consumption OK will u keep track untill then? thank u once again

Bearbeitet 18. November 2016 von Math

[Math]

had a quick word with mechanic today he explained me it is "pinking" aka detonation what you heard because of the brake cleaner and cause i already drove the car it probably will be evaporated by now, won't be a problem now anymore...

Bearbeitet 19. November 2016 von Math