[1.2 TDI ANY] - HELP: 6.9L/100km

[TitusM]

21 hours ago, vfralex1977 said:

Ok, thank you for the information.

I found many different ones, sometimes with an A and sometimes with a K and more.

Even the price differs from the original.

For example 36€ for the A or K version and 45€ for the E version (actually to be used with ANY and AMF).

The A version is e.g. for the Audi A4 and K for the Audi A8 according to the parts catalogue.

 

I will try it.

Do you have some links for the other versions?

I paid 10euro for the part aftermarket. Oem is around 50. 

[TitusM]

21 hours ago, vfralex1977 said:

Ok, thank you for the information.

I found many different ones, sometimes with an A and sometimes with a K and more.

Even the price differs from the original.

For example 36€ for the A or K version and 45€ for the E version (actually to be used with ANY and AMF).

The A version is e.g. for the Audi A4 and K for the Audi A8 according to the parts catalogue.

 

I will try it.

I took a closer look and indeed there are multiple letters....

And each letter is in a circle...it seems I was wrong. 

None of them seem to be listed as compatible with a2 1.2. 

 

Soooo this means there might be a difference in pressure and opening temperature. 

In my case this thing was cracked and air got inside the fuel system so ... maybe someone else can give some extra details?...

Why the same part can fit multiple cars. 

 

•  
• 
• This one seems to have a very different mounting
• 

 

[vfralex1977]

In the A2OC forum you will find a post that deals exactly with the topic A or E.
One there says that it doesn't fit mechanically, another that the parts have different functions.
And quite far down there is a link to AUTODOC.
The part at the front starting with 1J0 is suitable for version A or E.
It doesn't matter at all. I also think that there are no technical differences.
If it fits and seals mechanically, then it should fit.

Link A2OC: https://www.a2oc.net/community/index.php?threads/fuel-filter-valve.47975/

Link: AUTODOC.uk:  https://www.autodoc.co.uk/topran/2724516

Bearbeitet 8. März 2022 von vfralex1977

[vfralex1977]

I had ordered the part from FEBI BILSTEIN with the suffix A. That should come tomorrow.
Since I'm a little unsure, I've now ordered the original part with the suffix E from VAG.
So I can see what fits.

[vfralex1977]

By the way, is there anyone who has already converted from the old metal jacket filter to the cartridge filter of the newer models?
How are the connections? The old filter has 4 hose connections, the new one only 3.

 

Alt:                                                                                                                                                   Neu:

Bearbeitet 8. März 2022 von vfralex1977

[janihani]

The new one has also 4 hose connections.

 

 

The new one is A2 specific and cost roundabout 80€.

The old one used in many VAG cars, is easier to get and cheaper.

 

For installing the new one you need Paart Nr. 2.

 

 

vor 8 Minuten schrieb vfralex1977:

How are the connections?

 

It is a connector. The same connectors you'll find at the fuel tank or petrol filter.

 

[TitusM]

13 hours ago, vfralex1977 said:

I had ordered the part from FEBI BILSTEIN with the suffix A. That should come tomorrow.
Since I'm a little unsure, I've now ordered the original part with the suffix E from VAG.
So I can see what fits.

Well I fitted the one from vaico on a mann filter with no problems BUT make sure you install the valve out of the car. 

It is very hard to press it in the filter housing if you are under the car.

 

This is the part I installed (and lots of other producers are available):

https://www.autodoc.co.uk/vaico/2214688 

 

I am pretty sure that the suggested part with 1J does not fit. (maybe some adaptation is needed but I do not see the reason if the one with A works well)

 

I am not sure if changing to the plastic housing is a good idea. If something goes wrong with that housing you need to change it completely so you are back to the same job as for metal filter BUT it makes filter change 100 times easier AND I am pretty sure that using a "A" valve is the same as using a universal plastic housing.

 

I usually change the fuel filter alt least every 2 years. (2 oil changes)

Bearbeitet 9. März 2022 von TitusM

[TitusM]

14 hours ago, vfralex1977 said:

I had ordered the part from FEBI BILSTEIN with the suffix A. That should come tomorrow.
Since I'm a little unsure, I've now ordered the original part with the suffix E from VAG.
So I can see what fits.

 

Can you compare the 2 parts when they arrive? (FIRST let them site a while in the same temperature - they have a thermal plate inside)

I tested mine blowing air with my mouth trough it and so I detected different air flow. 

 

 

[TitusM]

19 hours ago, vfralex1977 said:

I had ordered the part from FEBI BILSTEIN with the suffix A. That should come tomorrow.
Since I'm a little unsure, I've now ordered the original part with the suffix E from VAG.
So I can see what fits.

@vfralex1977

Found the difference:

 

So for the 1.2 the return line opens only when reaching 60 degrees:))))))

If no aftermarket part is found then the one with A should be fine. The only difference is that the engine will warm up later....

 

"On the 1.2l TDI engine, the fuel pre-heating valve does not open up the path to the fuel tank until the fuel temperature exceeds 60°C (1.4l TDI engine >30°C). As a result, the heat is concentrated on the engine and the engine reaches operating temperature more quickly"

 

 

[vfralex1977]

Am 9.3.2022 um 07:48 schrieb TitusM:

I am pretty sure that the suggested part with 1J does not fit. (maybe some adaptation is needed but I do not see the reason if the one with A works well)

 

Thanks for the interesting information. Unfortunately, you are very right in your assumption.
The 1J0 does not fit because the diameter is too small and the flange for the safety clip is straight.
In the original part, it is 45° at an angle.

Well, I have now ordered a 057 through AMA***prime... and hope that it will arrive tomorrow and will fit.
More then in the thread to my AMF:

 

Look here:

 

[TitusM]

@vfralex1977

Although  057127247A  fits maybe the B version would be more suitable since the engines it is designed for have smaller power (90hp+).

BUT the B version seems to have a different top. Maybe diameters are the same.

 

let us know how "A" works for you.

Bearbeitet 15. März 2022 von TitusM

[TitusM]

On 3/2/2022 at 10:31 AM, TitusM said:

Found the issue: the valve on the fuel filter:

057127247A 

 

 

Back after some more time:(((

 

The consumption is still higher that other cars. 

The valve only solved part of the problem. 

 

I just bought a compression tester and injectors o-rings.  After opening up the injectors I will decide if I will sent the injectors for rebuild. 

 

 

[Austausch]

TitusM.

 

Did you ever find the problem?

 

Best regards.

[TitusM]

1000 years later::))

update:

 

I just bought from aliexpress a smoke machine for leak detection. I think this is a must have for this older cars.

 

Issues i discovered:

1) huge leak near the oil sensor because of a missing o-ring. Solve it and the car already drives better.

2) small leak near the turbo intake. I have to remove the pipe before the turbo to see what is going on there but it leaks quite a lot

3) the classical leak from the vacuum pump hose (this one was very little but still there). I will try to find a good price for a new high pressure pump.

 

My current consumption before fixing number issue 1) is city ~6.5l/100km and 4.3 external.

[TitusM]

I did not find the time to rebuild the engine.

I am just very glad for finding the leaks posted above.

I will come back with fuel consumption after this fixes.

 

Next will be:

1)Injectors check and maybe repair if necessary.

2)Turbo check and clean - maybe upgrade the core and then a remap.

3)compression check although now after fixing those leaks i believe there will be a major improvement.

4)high pressure pump replacement with something newer that does not suffer from the vacuum hose issue.

 

I am not sure I will do those this year. I still want to take out the engine and do a full check and rebuild but that requires also a garage that know I do not have.

 

In the mean time since I did not write I had issues with the clutch hoses. The special clamp for the pressure hoses that go to the hydraulic actuator got broken and left me stranded for a while. I did purchase 3 clamps :)) for 20 euros/peace:))

 

I bought a wet aspirator and cleaned the seats. Another very good 100euros investment that will potentially save lots of money in the long run with the interior cleaning.

 

The little bug did get a new set of wheels and summer tires. Unfortunately I could not find the original 145 ecopias anymore. Apparently 2023 was the last year you could buy those.

I installed 165 version. The total weight is 1kg extra for each wheel  compared to the winter continentals (10kg vs 11kg with new wider rims also) .

 

I think the Lupo 1.4 fsi rims look much better than the 1.2 tsi vesion:). I got the rims from Poland.

Bearbeitet 20. Mai von TitusM

[TitusM]

Fixed all the leaks from intake and added some superglue to the vacuum pump (there was no smoke coming out of it anymore).

The turbo o-ring for the intake was a little hard to find but got one in the end. 

 

It is a different car now. It does not rattle so much in eco mode.

It is a pain to drive 50km/hr (it rattles a bit because it shifts in 5th gear in eco mode).

 

The consumption seems to have gone 1L down compared to the previous test I done in this topic last year. 

In eco mode mixed - mostly external I get now 3.9L/100km. 

In normal mode when i arrived at home after the steep hill the consumption was 4.4L/100km.

I will be back with some city consumption after at least a month. (i do not drive the car that much ). 

 

STILL one weird thing:

When pressuring the vacuum hoses with the smoke machine I noticed smoke coming from the engine air intake. I suspect that the tandem pump/vacuum pump is not good inside - it does not seal well between oil and vacuum maybe.

The vacuum side should not communicate with the engine side/oil side at least not by my logic and knowledge so this might be another big issue.

 

I ordered a new pump from pierburg (it seems to have a better design than the luk version i have on the car) . 

The new tandem pump price is around 200 euros today in 2024-05 on autodoc24 (the mobile app).

 

This might also explain oil consumption - i taught that the valve seals might be old but now the tandem pump is also on the list. It would be nice if the pump solves the oil consumption too. 

 

The smoke test will be done again with the new pump. If the result is different this might be a good way to determine if the tandem pump is broken inside. 

 

I expect a big difference with the new tandem pump if not than the injectors and turbo will be next. 

The new turbo i've been looking at is this one: https://muchboost.com/product/1-2-tdi-hybrid-turbo-upgrade-audi-a2-volkswagen-lupo-seat-arosa-any-ayz/ . But for now i hope that the tandem pump will solve a lot. 

Bearbeitet 22. Mai von TitusM

[Lupo_3L]

The stock Turbo is capable of doing 120 HP so I question the necessity of an upgrade Turbo especially since a bigger turbo usually does not spool up that fast. 
 

[TitusM]

9 hours ago, Lupo_3L said:

The stock Turbo is capable of doing 120 HP so I question the necessity of an upgrade Turbo especially since a bigger turbo usually does not spool up that fast. 
 

Are you sure? As far as I know Tuneko Ltd the one that tuned the 1.2 lupo a lot got 90hp from this engine with stock stuff therefore i believe the turbo is somewhat limited. 

The turbo on 1.4 tdi 90 is not the same with the one on 1.2 tdi. That's why I believe the 1.2 turbo is not as potent. 

 

I agree a bigger turbo has bigger lag but since only the pallets/wheels (going billet) are different I expect an improvement in efficiency for the same garret housing.

I expect it to make better use of same flow since the billet wheels are lighter and have better airflow. In fact I expect lower lag because of better use of flow and decrease in spinning mass. 

 

Do you think I am looking at this wrong?

[_Manni_]

Jepp ....

 

Thats the Game also in the same housing.

 

More flow with high Rpm at high exhaust rate or quick high pressure by low flow.

 

There is no magic which brake this problem.

 

Therefore machines which needs high flow at high rate gets twin turbos. One small size for lower rpm and one bigger for high Rpm.

 

What ist your Goal ??? Lower consumption ??

 

Then stay on "reparing" and get all parts in fine condition

[TitusM]

9 minutes ago, _Manni_ said:

Jepp ....

 

Thats the Game also in the same housing.

 

More flow with high Rpm at high exhaust rate or quick high pressure by low flow.

 

There is no magic which brake this problem.

 

Therefore machines which needs high flow at high rate gets twin turbos. One small size for lower rpm and one bigger for high Rpm.

 

What ist your Goal ??? Lower consumption ??

 

Then stay on "reparing" and get all parts in fine condition

Thanks Manni. Yes I aim towards lower consumption but since I suspect turbo for wear I need to choose between upgrading to a more efficient turbo or repairing the old one. 

 

Maybe you are familiar with: https://forums.tdiclub.com/index.php?threads/1-2-tdi-tuning-info.390974/

I looked at what he did with his 1.2 lupo. He till has insane fuel consumption but he also done 100 other things to the car. 

I will not be able to go that drastic but i can implement part of modifications. 

[_Manni_]

Don't forget.

 

A Diesel ist a turbocharged motor. More maximum power must not mean , it is more efficent, mostly it hast only more air pressure and more diesel.

 

Often this hast no effect on driving with low power cause since the machine was Born IT works in this state with little fuel injection at high Air mass. The burning is with high air ratio.

 

There the screws to turn are: status of enginge, air leaks, blocked filters, bearing status, tire size and pressure etc.

 

If you drive digital (full Power or Zero Power) you are key for low fuel consumption

[Lupo_3L]

vor 2 Stunden schrieb TitusM:

Are you sure? As far as I know Tuneko Ltd the one that tuned the 1.2 lupo a lot got 90hp from this engine with stock stuff therefore i believe the turbo is somewhat limited. 

The turbo on 1.4 tdi 90 is not the same with the one on 1.2 tdi. That's why I believe the 1.2 turbo is not as potent. 

 

I agree a bigger turbo has bigger lag but since only the pallets/wheels (going billet) are different I expect an improvement in efficiency for the same garret housing.

I expect it to make better use of same flow since the billet wheels are lighter and have better airflow. In fact I expect lower lag because of better use of flow and decrease in spinning mass. 

 

Do you think I am looking at this wrong?

The limitation of the 3L is its transmission which will fail earlier whilst using such  a power.

I know from one guy from Lithuania who tuned it with stock components to 125HP.

I remapped it to 120HP for testing purposes and VTG control showed that at 1.5 Bar it's not even at the limit.

Turbo boost with 95HP is around 1,3 Bar. The turbo is capable of doing 1.5 Bar.

[TitusM]

On 5/23/2024 at 1:05 PM, Lupo_3L said:

The limitation of the 3L is its transmission which will fail earlier whilst using such  a power.

I know from one guy from Lithuania who tuned it with stock components to 125HP.

I remapped it to 120HP for testing purposes and VTG control showed that at 1.5 Bar it's not even at the limit.

Turbo boost with 95HP is around 1,3 Bar. The turbo is capable of doing 1.5 Bar.

Awesome.

So you are running manual gearbox? everyone says that 200nm is the limit and that is reached around 100hp if i remember correctly. 

It is nice to hear from someone who actually tested this things. 

[TitusM]

On 5/23/2024 at 11:14 AM, _Manni_ said:

Don't forget.

 

A Diesel ist a turbocharged motor. More maximum power must not mean , it is more efficent, mostly it hast only more air pressure and more diesel.

 

Often this hast no effect on driving with low power cause since the machine was Born IT works in this state with little fuel injection at high Air mass. The burning is with high air ratio.

 

There the screws to turn are: status of enginge, air leaks, blocked filters, bearing status, tire size and pressure etc.

 

If you drive digital (full Power or Zero Power) you are key for low fuel consumption

True. As I say power does not come only from air:)) you need to burn something in order to get extra horses. 

 

As lupo_3l said he used stock parts to go up to 125 and turbo was not yet at limit. It is good to hear from someone who tested stock parts to limits:). 

 

As for tire size...i am not sure that 145 makes a bit difference compared to 165 width. So far i like the ride better with the 165 and the contact surface is almost the same because of the way the tires are build. I bougth B/B markings and they seem to be much better than ecopias in terms of comfort and traction (but i still need to register the new tires and that will be a pain)

[TitusM]

On 5/23/2024 at 1:05 PM, Lupo_3L said:

The limitation of the 3L is its transmission which will fail earlier whilst using such  a power.

I know from one guy from Lithuania who tuned it with stock components to 125HP.

I remapped it to 120HP for testing purposes and VTG control showed that at 1.5 Bar it's not even at the limit.

Turbo boost with 95HP is around 1,3 Bar. The turbo is capable of doing 1.5 Bar.

Did you test water methanol injection in this engine? by any chance?

[Lupo_3L]

vor 3 Stunden schrieb TitusM:

Did you test water methanol injection in this engine? by any chance?

Not necessary since the stock engine is capable of providing more than enough power. I would not use methanol injection in any diesel unless I would go to the quartermile. 

[TitusM]

21 hours ago, Lupo_3L said:

Not necessary since the stock engine is capable of providing more than enough power. I would not use methanol injection in any diesel unless I would go to the quartermile. 

not even for the cleaning purposes? only water maybe?

[Lupo_3L]

Nothing to be cleaned there. The EGR ist usually hardly working on these engines due to amlifier failure in the engine control unit.

My 2x 3L have 620.000 respectively 540.000km and nothing has ever been cleaned.

[A2 HL jense]

Am 24.5.2024 um 21:17 schrieb TitusM:

 

As for tire size...i am not sure that 145 makes a bit difference compared to 165 width. So far i like the ride better with the 165 and the contact surface is almost the same because of the way the tires are build. I bougth B/B markings and they seem to be much better than ecopias in terms of comfort and traction (but i still need to register the new tires and that will be a pain)

thats arround 0,4 to 0,5l more for 100km, there is a whole thread in this forum about this tire change with experiences. So if you get 3,9 average with the new tires as you wrote it's a very good average.

[A2 HL jense]

Am 20.5.2024 um 14:59 schrieb TitusM:

I did not find the time to rebuild the engine.

I am just very glad for finding the leaks posted above.

I will come back with fuel consumption after this fixes.

 

Next will be:

1)Injectors check and maybe repair if necessary.

2)Turbo check and clean - maybe upgrade the core and then a remap.

3)compression check although now after fixing those leaks i believe there will be a major improvement.

4)high pressure pump replacement with something newer that does not suffer from the vacuum hose issue.

 

I am not sure I will do those this year. I still want to take out the engine and do a full check and rebuild but that requires also a garage that know I do not have.

 

In the mean time since I did not write I had issues with the clutch hoses. The special clamp for the pressure hoses that go to the hydraulic actuator got broken and left me stranded for a while. I did purchase 3 clamps :)) for 20 euros/peace:))

 

I bought a wet aspirator and cleaned the seats. Another very good 100euros investment that will potentially save lots of money in the long run with the interior cleaning.

 

The little bug did get a new set of wheels and summer tires. Unfortunately I could not find the original 145 ecopias anymore. Apparently 2023 was the last year you could buy those.

I installed 165 version. The total weight is 1kg extra for each wheel  compared to the winter continentals (10kg vs 11kg with new wider rims also) .

 

I think the Lupo 1.4 fsi rims look much better than the 1.2 tsi vesion:). I got the rims from Poland.

 

Can you tell the rims parts number please?

Bearbeitet 26. Mai von A2 HL jense

[TitusM]

8 hours ago, A2 HL jense said:

 

Can you tell the rims parts number please?

6E0601025F

They are...quite hard to find. Lupo 1.6 FSI had this model. 

It is 2cm wider than the classic 3l version but still very light. I did not compare rim to rim weight only complete wheels. 

 

About the tires I do have to make a comparison with the ecopias and those. I have a pair of rims with very old ecopias (scarry to drive them on wet surface). I believe that there is not a big difference (I would say 0.2-0.3 maximum on external) because I have eco version on the new tires and if I add up the contact area is the same as the ecopias only 10% weight added. The ride is far more comfortable with the 165 version...no doubt about it. 

Anyways...the 145 are nowhere to be found anymore. I wanted to buy a new set and no luck. Not even the winter continentals are not available anymore.

Bearbeitet 26. Mai von TitusM
update

[A2 HL jense]

vor 3 Stunden schrieb TitusM:

because I have eco version on the new tires and if I add up the contact area is the same as the ecopia

How should that be possible with a wider tire?  Eco tires are more about different material mixture and Profile, not less contact area.

 

Experiences here in the forum are different, even with eco tyres.

 

Efficiency Is mostly about the weight and the aerodynamics.

 

Driving (and braking) is much saver and more comfortable, that matches the experience here in the forum.

 

Thanks for the part number.

 

Because of the lack of ecopia we will all run in this problem. Wich exact tyre do you use?

Bearbeitet 26. Mai von A2 HL jense