1.2 tdi [ANY]: skipping gears

[bret]

Hello,

 

a fellow northerner appears to have an interesting problem with his 1.2 skipping gears (going directly 2-4). Thoughts about how to diagnose the problem - especially considering the garage doesn't really want to do it - would be appreciated....

 

Thanks!

 

 - Bret

[bret]

the original thread: https://www.a2oc.net/community/index.php?threads/1-2-tdi-automatic-gear-shift-and-acceleration-problem.37555/#post-330044

 

 - Bret

[Lupo_3L]

I had it with a friends A2 that skipped gears when manually downshifting. 

A gge had solved the issue. 

[bret]

yeah, i suspect that no GGE has been done for some time...

 

Another brings up the vacuum pipes... I am actually pretty physically close to the car with it being just across the bay in Lauttasaari

 

 - Bret

[Aamir]

22 hours ago, bret said:

Hello,

 

a fellow northerner appears to have an interesting problem with his 1.2 skipping gears (going directly 2-4). Thoughts about how to diagnose the problem - especially considering the garage doesn't really want to do it - would be appreciated....

 

Thanks!

 

 - Bret

Thanks again Bret for this thread. I will order cables online for scanning and will go through that GGE test. I first have to familiarize myself with that test but I am not sure if my explanation was not clear or how the messages come up on viewers screen. I clarify the problem again...

First time when I noticed anything abnormal was skipping gear on quick acceleration. Car wasn't losing so much power at that time. Real problem came in my last 300km journey. where I drove car manually with a bit extra acceleration just to clean the carbon. but when hilly area came and I was going at 70-80 km speed, I pressed accelerator and only rpm needle moved quiet fast while car lost power and I could not maintain the speed. Even the speed reduced to 20-30 km/h and I shifted it to manual gear mode and climbed up in 2nd and 3rd gear with low acceleration because the rpm moved too fast while car lost power. rest of the 200 km journey was like this.

[Aamir]

11 hours ago, Lupo_3L said:

I had it with a friends A2 that skipped gears when manually downshifting. 

A gge had solved the issue. 

Hi, What is the English name of this test? Are there any links about process of this test?

[DerWeißeA2]

Basic settings.

 

5-Speed Electronic Manual Transmission (085)

[janihani]

vor 22 Minuten schrieb Aamir:

rpm needle moved quiet fast while the car lost power

so I think your clutch have to renew.

 

As my clutch was used up, the rpm needle goes straith up but my car won't climb up a very little hill. 

After I renew the clutch everything was fine.

[janihani]

@Aamir: Does your car really skipping gears?

In your dashboard the actually gear will displayed. Is it really so, that the gears will skipping?

I don't think so. 

[DerWeißeA2]

vor 27 Minuten schrieb janihani:

so I think your clutch have to renew.

 

As my clutch was used up, the rpm needle goes straith up but my car won't climb up a very little hill. 

After I renew the clutch everything was fine.

 

Either that or parts of a broken guide sleeve block the clutch.

[bret]

Aaahh, the führungshülse. Ok. I will hopefully get to look at this Friday witn VCDS in my hand. Let's see how far we get.

 

Kostenpünkte für die beiden? Hülse ist um 500 und kupplung ähnlich, oder?

 

 Danke!

 

 - Bret

[janihani]

@bret

Führungshülse kostet 10€ und Kupplungssatz 150€ (in DE).

Für beides muss das Getriebe raus. Kupplung zu tauschen ist ein paar Minuten mehr Arbeit. 

Die Arbeit ist also die "gleiche". 

Dauer: rund ein Arbeitstag.

[Lupo_3L]

Usually this behavior is quite normal for a broken „Führungshülse“

The clutch itself is extremely long lasting and doesn’t wear out spontaneously. 

The broken Führungshülse prevents the clutch from being released and therefore the clutch slips excessively. 

[Aamir]

11 hours ago, janihani said:

@Aamir: Does your car really skipping gears?

In your dashboard the actually gear will displayed. Is it really so, that the gears will skipping?

I don't think so. 

If I talk about first few days of problem, it was exactly skipping gears. 1-3, 2-4, 3-5. when ever I pressed extra accelerator at a constant speed. Then I checked hydraulic oil level and it was a bit low. also accumulator cycle was 3 gears per start so I was thing to replace that at that time and after a week or so a total mess.

[Aamir]

9 hours ago, janihani said:

@bret

Führungshülse kostet 10€ und Kupplungssatz 150€ (in DE).

Für beides muss das Getriebe raus. Kupplung zu tauschen ist ein paar Minuten mehr Arbeit. 

Die Arbeit ist also die "gleiche". 

Dauer: rund ein Arbeitstag.

Does it have clutch replacement work very different from other cars? because I took a drawing from audi about clutch parts and it is exactly same as manual clutch function. I called audi to ask clutch replacement cost and they said 2000 euro approx. I was thinking to replace it myself with a friend who doesnot have very good experience but recently replaced the clutch of his car in home parking.

[janihani]

The clutch replacement is like other cars. But after that you have to make a basic setting (called GGE in german)

Mark the 4 plugs of the Gangsteller, they may be connected in a wrong way. 

[Aamir]

11 hours ago, DerWeißeA2 said:

 

Either that or parts of a broken guide sleeve block the clutch.

In your case was it so that rpm needle moved strangely? what I experienced that I was going on straight road at about 80 km speed in manual gear 4 and I pushed acceleration and rpm moved very rapidly from 2000 to 3500 or 4000 and car lost power instead of taking acceleration? This happened with me in the last journey of 300km. Doesn't matter if it is straight road or a hilly road. On hilly road it was very difficult to control acceleration once it started to drop but on a highway it was like if I lost power at 80 -100 speed I managed to stop the fall of speed around 50-60, by very slow acceleration and in low gear. and also kept rpm below 2000. Because above 2000 rpm did not remain stable.  So what was happening on 120 km highway... I managed to increase the speed around 100 and pressed accelerator a bit more and suddenly car lost power while rpm was around 3000-3500 and car speed reduced to 40-50  and I reduced the gear and managed to accelerate again in 2nd or 3rd gear. Traffic was so pissed off with this and I was afraid of big trucks. 

when this problem started in that journey I was able to give high acceleration to speed up the car but later I was only able to give slow acceleration.

[Aamir]

3 minutes ago, janihani said:

The clutch replacement is like other cars. But after that you have to make a basic setting (called GGE in german)

Mark the 4 plugs of the Gangsteller, they may be connected in a wrong way. 

Okay for me these are totally new terms. So after changing clutch a GGE setting needs to be done through software? 

Does the engine need to be removed or its possible to without removing? Because my friend changed Renault megane clutch without removing engine.

[bret]

no engine out but the gearbox. Which means disconnecting driveshafts, and my judgement would be 2 hrs for out and another 2 for in. At standard finnish rates, there's your €500. 

 

I will double-check if I already have the software to run a GGE, I might already have it and was going to get it anyway...

 

Kann ich irgendwie ein kaputter Führungshülse einfach erkennen? Physisch / elektronisch?

 

 - Bret

[janihani]

vor 2 Minuten schrieb Aamir:

Okay for me these are totally new terms. So after changing clutch a GGE setting needs to be done through software? 

Yes. You'll need VCDS or something similar.

I see, Bret can help you.

 

The engine can remain in the car.

 

vor 3 Minuten schrieb bret:

Kann ich irgendwie ein kaputter Führungshülse einfach erkennen? Physisch / elektronisch?

 

Ja, ganz einfach. Siehe

Führungshülse

[bret]

thanks!

 

Aamir: The 1.2 gearbox is like a partner - it needs time, care and attention to give its best. It is a robotised manual and one of the first ones. A GGE - or basic setting - essentially allows the software to understand waht the story is with regard to wear and the set up of the system as a whole. It should be done on a regular basis, say when you get an oil change done. 

Let's see how far we get Friday. I will drive in. I have time as of 1500 or so, working until then over in Ruoholahti. I will chat to a colleague, see if I can get a recommendation for a decent VAG specialist that won't get scared...

 

 - Bret

[Aamir]

53 minutes ago, bret said:

thanks!

 

Aamir: The 1.2 gearbox is like a partner - it needs time, care and attention to give its best. It is a robotised manual and one of the first ones. A GGE - or basic setting - essentially allows the software to understand waht the story is with regard to wear and the set up of the system as a whole. It should be done on a regular basis, say when you get an oil change done. 

Let's see how far we get Friday. I will drive in. I have time as of 1500 or so, working until then over in Ruoholahti. I will chat to a colleague, see if I can get a recommendation for a decent VAG specialist that won't get scared...

 

 - Bret

Thanks again Bret for all the effort and time. I will be there before 15:00. 

[Phoenix A2]

In comparison to clutch exchange on a normal manual-A2, the following extra-work has to done on an 1.2:

 

Before clutch exchange (gearbox not removed yet):

-remove clutch actuator

-remove gear selector(aka gangsteller), mark every connector before disassembly!

 

After clutch exchange (gearbox already installed):

-reinstall gear selector

-reinstall clutch actuator

-adjust clutch actuator to have position sensor voltage of around 1.85 at idle (disconnect connector of hydraulic pump during adjustment)

-do basic setting (VCDS)

 

I would assume at least 6-8 hours for the clutch-exchange on an 1.2, especially when there is no experience.

 

[bret]

Ok, so there is a thick rod underneath the abs block. It appears to be twisted. Thoughts? It moves slightly  when gears are selected but not much.... and this rubber bung is not in the right place. Thoughts?

[DerWeißeA2]

Looks fine to me, nothing really to worry about. The thick rod is twisted, muss so, and it moves slightly when pulled (clutch is open).

[DerWeißeA2]

Have a look at the Messwertblöcke of the gearbox. There is a field showing how far clutch opens and closes, with the mouse over the field it shows you the value it should be.

[RAB3L]

Bear in mind that the output shaft of the gearbox is constantly monitored by the sensor on top of the gearbox. If there is a mis-match between the engine revs and the speed of the output shaft for any gear, the accelerator is disabled. Also any major problem with the clutch would prevent the engine from starting.

 

RAB

[bret]

so I went over to Lauttasaari yesterday. The car starts and idles without problems. It also moved under its own power backwards and forwards without major issue; I will get my full VCDS cable Monday now and will try a full GGE just as soon as I can. The two things that made me really wonder were the bar which seemed twisted and the one cable which seems to move. Moving the shift lever moved the one cable around, but there's one grommet which doesn't seem to be in the right place; it's pulled forward from the place that seems to be its home.

 

Aside from that, an overview yesterday basically gave no real new information - the Bluetooth dongle I had with refused to connect. The garage said they tried to read errors and found none; they were reasonably sure the accumulator has a problem of some variety. 

 

As said, I'll try and make time Tuesday to go over and run a full GGE and see how far we get. 

 

 - Bret

[RAB3L]

" The two things that made me really wonder were the bar which seemed twisted and the one cable which seems to move. "

 

That's presumably the clutch arm and the cable from the clutch actuator. The lever moves backwards and forwards in neutral. All normal.

 

RAB

[Aamir]

As we are waiting for vcds cables for diagnosis we looked for that clutch arm movement. Below is the link of the video that we made.

https://youtu.be/SV_qg5EnmNY

 

What we are not sure that when I put the car in gear this arm didn't move. It remained on same position during nutral and when I applied gear. There was a normal movement like manual cars when the ignition was turned on and off. 

Does it look normal?

 

[Aamir]

On 11/3/2018 at 10:52 AM, RAB3L said:

Bear in mind that the output shaft of the gearbox is constantly monitored by the sensor on top of the gearbox. If there is a mis-match between the engine revs and the speed of the output shaft for any gear, the accelerator is disabled. Also any major problem with the clutch would prevent the engine from starting.

 

RAB

It happens few times when car wasn't taking acceleration at all. Felt like gear is slipped and I turned off and started the car again. 

[RAB3L]

Hi Aamir,

 

The video looks fairly normal to me. Have you checked the hydraulic oil level in the reservoir? Not enough oil and/or a failing accumulator (loss of nitrogen) would cause the accelerator to be disabled while drivng. I can give you instructions if necessary.

 

RAB

[Aamir]

1 minute ago, RAB3L said:

Hi Aamir,

 

The video looks fairly normal to me. Have you checked the hydraulic oil level in the reservoir? Not enough oil and/or a failing accumulator (loss of nitrogen) would cause the accelerator to be disabled while drivng. I can give you instructions if necessary.

 

RAB

Yes I did. Actually I bought oil from one shop. They guy looked for the right oil in the database and when he gave the hydraulic oil he wasn't 100% convinced but said this is the regular hydraulic oil. So I used this. But on the other hand pressure accumulator cycle was 3 gear change in one run. I was thinking to order that part but the bigger issue came up

[bret]

cable should be in my hands tomorrow, I will look into bringing the other laptop with me on Tuesday. 

 

 - Bret

[Aamir]

On 11/3/2018 at 7:03 PM, RAB3L said:

" The two things that made me really wonder were the bar which seemed twisted and the one cable which seems to move. "

 

That's presumably the clutch arm and the cable from the clutch actuator. The lever moves backwards and forwards in neutral. All normal.

 

RAB

Hi RAB

Thanks. You mentioned that in netral clutch arm moves slightly back and forth but why it doesn't move when gear is applied? Because in manual clutch this arm moves alot when we put the car in gear. In the video this arm only made big movement when I turned the ignition on and off. In between it moved slightly and no change in movement if the car was in gear or neutral. 

[RAB3L]

Because you cannot see it, at least not with a stationary car. You could see it only with one side on an axle stand with one wheel off the ground and your foot not on the brake. If you change gear with your foot on the brake, you are still in neutral in effect because the clutch is still open. It only closes when you take your foot off the brake.

 

RAB

[RAB3L]

By the way, the VW/Audi recommendation is to use VW hydraulic steering oil for the hydraulics. You should check that the Comma oil is equivalent. The VW part no. is G004000M2.

 

RAB

[Aamir]

10 hours ago, RAB3L said:

By the way, the VW/Audi recommendation is to use VW hydraulic steering oil for the hydraulics. You should check that the Comma oil is equivalent. The VW part no. is G004000M2. 

 

RAB

Thanks. I checked and also have sent a query to comma oils now. There are slightly different numbers in data sheet of these two oils. But do you think that I should change oil before starting other things? How should I drain oil ?

[Aamir]

On ‎11‎/‎4‎/‎2018 at 8:30 PM, bret said:

cable should be in my hands tomorrow, I will look into bringing the other laptop with me on Tuesday. 

 

 - Bret

Hi Bret

 

Any update of cables?

[bret]

yep, is here and software updated. will give you a call in the morning. 

 

 - Bret

[RAB3L]

vor 12 Stunden schrieb Aamir:

Thanks. I checked and also have sent a query to comma oils now. There are slightly different numbers in data sheet of these two oils. But do you think that I should change oil before starting other things? How should I drain oil ?

 

No, it seems that it is compatible with VW steering oil. The only way to drain it all is to remove all the components and even then it's difficult. You don't want to complicate the current situation!

 

RAB

[bret]

so. no connection to transmission conyrol module.

 

both earth points inside are good. battery is ok but particularly good. 

 

brakes show dtc error...  but that seems to be part of the same problem.

 

 ideas?

[RAB3L]

Presumably there is some sort of connection, otherwise the clutch wouldn't operate? Have you tried disconnecting and re-connecting from/to the controller? Clean the connector with switch cleaner and re-connect. if that doesn't work, try the same with the gearbox actuator, clutch actuator and hydraulic unit. For the gearbox actuator, you might have to remove the hydraulic unit to get to it - de-pressurise first by unscrewing the accumulator half a turn. The clutch actuator connection should be reachable through the wheel arch.

 

RAB

[Aamir]

On 11/7/2018 at 6:45 PM, RAB3L said:

Presumably there is some sort of connection, otherwise the clutch wouldn't operate? Have you tried disconnecting and re-connecting from/to the controller? Clean the connector with switch cleaner and re-connect. if that doesn't work, try the same with the gearbox actuator, clutch actuator and hydraulic unit. For the gearbox actuator, you might have to remove the hydraulic unit to get to it - de-pressurise first by unscrewing the accumulator half a turn. The clutch actuator connection should be reachable through the wheel arch.

 

RAB

 

 

 

 

 

Bearbeitet 6. Dezember 2018 von Aamir

[Aamir]

Hello 

 

I am back with some data. 

My brother managed to detect fault codes and here are the list of some related to our problem.

For the gearbox sensor it has too much oil on it and I can recall that I dropped some hydraulic oil on it while I was putting in reservoir. 

Any expert opinion about these codes?

 

I don't know why files are not opening so I am writing codes here

1. 00263, transmission. 27-10 , , Implausible signal

2. 00297 gearbox speed sensor (G38)

3-10 no signal

3. 01155 clutch , 42-10 speed deviation too high.

fault code 1

fault code 2

Bearbeitet 6. Dezember 2018 von Aamir

[Aamir]

On 11/7/2018 at 6:45 PM, RAB3L said:

Presumably there is some sort of connection, otherwise the clutch wouldn't operate? Have you tried disconnecting and re-connecting from/to the controller? Clean the connector with switch cleaner and re-connect. if that doesn't work, try the same with the gearbox actuator, clutch actuator and hydraulic unit. For the gearbox actuator, you might have to remove the hydraulic unit to get to it - de-pressurise first by unscrewing the accumulator half a turn. The clutch actuator connection should be reachable through the wheel arch.

 

RAB

Hi Rab

 

My brother managed to detect fault codes and here are the list of some related to our problem.

For the gearbox sensor it has too much oil on it and I can recall that I dropped some hydraulic oil on it while I was putting in reservoir. 

Any expert opinion about these codes?

 

I don't know why files are not opening so I am writing codes here

1. 00263, transmission. 27-10 , , Implausible signal

2. 00297 gearbox speed sensor (G38)

3-10 no signal

3. 01155 clutch , 42-10 speed deviation too high.

[Aamir]

Sorry about repated post. I am not a good used of any forum

[Aamir]

On 11/7/2018 at 5:48 PM, bret said:

so. no connection to transmission conyrol module.

 

both earth points inside are good. battery is ok but particularly good. 

 

brakes show dtc error...  but that seems to be part of the same problem.

 

 ideas?

Hi Bret

 

Can you check my post? I don't know if it is visible to you or not?. 

Please also tag it to someone who you think may have a good idea about these codes.

 

[janihani]

Clear all fault codes.

 

vor 46 Minuten schrieb Aamir:

2. 00297 gearbox speed sensor (G38)

 

Check the wiring of this sensor.

 

vor 46 Minuten schrieb Aamir:

3. 01155 clutch , 42-10 speed deviation too high

 

If the clutch is slipping, then you get this fault code.

[bret]

sorry, I wasn't reading the entire forum yesterday, but the answers above should help.  

 

 - Bret