Possible ATL turbo upgrade?

[udovdh]

Hello!

Which turbo would allow the 1.4 TDI (MKB:ATL) to produce more HP (PS) but also allow for more, lower bottom torque when compared to the 'stock' turbo on the ATL?

Where could I find some hints about this challenge?

 

 

Kind regards,

Udo

[Romulus]

Welcome Udo! 

 

I don't have first hand experience on the ATL, but I know it's quite sensitive when it comes to turbo issues. There are some conversions around, though. 

 

Probably some of the experts here will kick in in short time. 

 

Regards from NL to NL

Thijs 

[udovdh]

Elsewhere the 1449v was suggested as an upgrade to the stock turbo, supposedly a BW BV39.

Can the 1449v spool up at low rpm for low end torque?

[biohaufen]

Hi, I‘ve seen your post in the TDIclub Forum.

 

I wouldn’t recommend to use a 1449V as it’s not capable of supplying more than 1,4 Bar.

How much power/torque are you planning to get?

A GT1749V would be pretty much P‘n‘P if you cut the manifold so it fits on the 3 cyl TDI, capable of around 1,6 Bar in 1.4 TDI and 130hp without smoke, spoils quite fast.

(I’ve used this one on an AMF 75hp)

 

For more power you could use a GT1749VB, but spool will be worse and it could also surge.

Newer turbo would be great too, but I cannot guarantee that they fit in the A2 engine bay.

 

 

 

Bearbeitet 21. Juni 2018 von biohaufen

[udovdh]

17 hours ago, biohaufen said:

A GT1749V would be pretty much P‘n‘P if you cut the manifold so it fits on the 3 cyl TDI, capable of around 1,6 Bar in 1.4 TDI and 130hp without smoke, spoils quite fast.

(I’ve used this one on an AMF 75hp)

 

 

 

Will the spool up be as fast as the stock ATL turbo?

`Goal` is kinda open for discussion. Currently at 95HP/240Nm from a BNM 3-cylinder.

Adding the ATL turbo to that setup should get the block close to 120 HP/280 Nm.

Closer to circa 140 HP/300 Nm would be interesting if we can combine that goal with the low end torque of the stock ATL turbo because the low end is what we'll use daily.

Setup will be used as a daily driver so should respect hardware limitations and not be 'on the edge' of what is possible.

(virtual) Smoke-free tune is must.

[udovdh]

Elsewhere I found this: http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?p=3321977

140 hp / 288 Nm

Others comment that there is room for more as the tune was limited to avoid gearbox damage.

 

Questions:

How would this graph compare to the stock ATL turbo setup below 2000 rpm?

What room -if any- for improvement is there in the real world to improve on the graph shown if the gearbox is not a limitation anymore?

[biohaufen]

Well, tbh I have never driven an ATL, but low end torque could also be achieved by decreasing AFR in low revs. 

You will always have a "turbo lag" when running high boost!

Even though a GT1749V might be able to supply the same boost at 1500RPM as the BV39A, it will feel laggier, because of the high torque peak which occurs around 1800-2000 RPM (of course you could smoothen this out, but whats the point as you are loosing torque then) and because it's transient response is a bit slower.

 

If the gearbox is not the limitation (which it isn't, we have figured out that it holds 350Nm quite well :p), then the limit for the engine internals would be around 135hp (smoke free 120hp), as your BNM has quite small injectors.

 

Wanting ultimate low end torque, a GTD1244VZ might be really awesome. (but that's waaaay from Plug and Play)

 

 

[udovdh]

Another way of putting the big question is;
Would the GT1749V be good enough at spooling around 1700 rpm so that the 3-cylinder TDI can do 100 KM/h comfortably when utilising a gearbox of type MYP in the highest gear?

I.e.: the engine should not sputter when confronted with this load under these conditions; I do not need peak-torque that low but (just) enough to drive the car with this 'bluemotion' MYP gearbox.

In this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lIGRWoVw8Ag an ATL with probably stock turbo does exactly that.

 

 

Bearbeitet 23. Juni 2018 von udovdh

[biohaufen]

Yes, it should definitely be able to handle that!

 

[udovdh]

Thanks, then to the gearbox:
Swapping in the MYP is apparently harder than a GRJ (or JDD or any MQ250 gearbox).

Hopefully MQ250 can handle +20% Nm torque like MQ200 (02T, HCS) has done so far.

Can anybody please confirm?

[udovdh]

My favourite gearbox shop *COUGH*http://ckr-fahrzeugtechnik.de/

*COUGH* confirmed that MQ250 can take more than 250 NM...

[udovdh]

How would the GT 1749V compare to the stock turbo on a BNM TDI block below 2000 rpm?

I.e.: we have a non-VNT turbo against a bigger VNT turbo.

So we might lose some oomph from the stock ATL turbo (BW BV39?) but what difference is left compared to my current BNM?

 

[biohaufen]

Way better than the GT1544S, which is totally gutless under 2000RPM.

Really, the difference in spool is massive!

[udovdh]

Hmmm.

What does an AMF have as a stock turbo? Same as BNM?

In a  graph that I got, a chiptuned AMF scores better for both torque and horsepower below 2100 rpm when compared to the same AMF with GT1749V with fresh chiptuning.

At 1800 rpm my chiptuned BNM scored approximately in between the AMF and AMF with GT1749V when looking at both torque and horsepower.

How can we explain this against the observations here? Different stock turbo's?

Below is my `stock` BNM with chiptune:

 

Bearbeitet 4. Juli 2018 von udovdh
dyno graph inserted

[Nagah]

The AMF stock turbo is a Garrett GT1544S.

Bearbeitet 4. Juli 2018 von Nagah

[udovdh]

Here's the AMF versus AMF + GT1749V graph:

 

 

And this is my BNM versus AMF + GT1749V

 

As you can see is the BNM performing better below circa 2100 rpm.

Also compare BNM to the chipped AMF in the top graph.

Bearbeitet 4. Juli 2018 von udovdh
added graph

[Nagah]

Actually I cannot see which is which.  

[biohaufen]

Might just be the tune?

If you want then I can search for my logs,  which show that the GT1749V definitely makes more boost down low.  At least with my tune I reached peak torque at 2000 RPM which holds all the way until 3200RPM. (I even had to reduce the injection quantity at 1800/1900, because of the clutch slipping!)

Also turbo seems to kick quite late with this car, are you sure that this isn't a GT1749VB in the picture?

[udovdh]

In PDF legenda and comments in email that contained the PDFs only GT1749V was mentioned, not VB.

So I can only assume GT1749V...

 

Legenda was stripped because of privacy.

[udovdh]

We also received a tip about the GTD1752VRK with some fabulous dyno graphs from a souped up Lupo with 1.4 TDI.

Big question:
Would this turbo spool up faster than the stock turbo on the stock block? (not ported head, no water-air intercooler, etc)

 

The graph shows my chipped BNM versus said GTD1752VRK setup in a Lupo.

Bearbeitet 6. Juli 2018 von udovdh
inserted graph

[udovdh]

That Lupo might be this build https://3lvrienden.nl/viewtopic.php?f=32&t=2691

And this:

 

Bearbeitet 6. Juli 2018 von udovdh

[biohaufen]

Yes the GTD1752VRK is awesome, but it’s transient response won’t be as good as the GT1749V.

Just because it’s too big, even though it’s spools pretty fast because of the ball bearing

[udovdh]

18 hours ago, biohaufen said:

Yes the GTD1752VRK is awesome, but it’s transient response won’t be as good as the GT1749V.

Just because it’s too big, even though it’s spools pretty fast because of the ball bearing 

 

Could a GTD 14xx be a better choice in that regard? Max power of course will be limited. (how much?)

[udovdh]

On 7/8/2018 at 10:28 AM, biohaufen said:

Yes the GTD1752VRK is awesome, but it’s transient response won’t be as good as the GT1749V.

 

But it spools quicker than the stock turbo.

We do not get that steep slope when e.g. go from 80 to 130 KM/h in fifth gear?

The smaller turbo appears not to be available in ball-bearing configuration so it's slope might be less steep.

So if the transient response if good enough for daily driving and perhaps not worse than the stock turbo I could live with it...

 

Bearbeitet 9. Juli 2018 von udovdh

[biohaufen]

Am 9.7.2018 um 04:33 schrieb udovdh:

 

Could a GTD 14xx be a better choice in that regard? Max power of course will be limited. (how much?)

Yes, I think so.

Also newer VNT mechanisms will of course spool better or have other benefits.

BUT keep in mind that it also has to fit in an A2!

I tried to mount a GTC1549VZ and failed, because it was just too clumsy.

Something like a GTD1244VZ might be really nice for you, if you don’t care about top end performance. (But you either need to make a custom manifold or weld it to the AMF one)

 

 

[udovdh]

Or could we consider a cheaper / 'simpler' (non-VNT) compound turbo setup?

I.e.: one high pressure turbo for the quick spool up and a bigger low pressure turbo spooling up at higher rpms.

If not worth the effort: please let me know.

[stylophonic]

was waiting for someone to mention the gtd1752vrk.. its ceramic ballbearing with 5th generation vnt mechanism.. this is by bar the best turbo for the atl. 

turbo technology has moved on drastically in 15 years..

thanks for that comparision graph!

the smaller gtd turbos dont have the same ceramic bb technology

Bearbeitet 11. Oktober 2018 von stylophonic

[udovdh]

The GTD1752VRK combined with 3-Cylinder PD TDI. Stock intake manifold. (no porting)

 

 

 

This setup was not pushed to the max but tuned for fuel consumption and little smoke.

Still quite a difference.

The green lines show the stock setup.

The red lines are showing the previous 'chip' performance.

The blue lines show the GTD1752VRK setup's performance.

 

Of course:  VVT motorsport.

Bearbeitet 23. November 2018 von udovdh
inserted graph

[udovdh]

After one week of mostly calm, quiet driving I can say that fuel consumption remains largely unchanged.

Next week we'll drive a tiny bit quicker to see the impact on fuel consumption.

[stylophonic]

On 11/29/2018 at 4:40 PM, udovdh said:

After one week of mostly calm, quiet driving I can say that fuel consumption remains largely unchanged.

Next week we'll drive a tiny bit quicker to see the impact on fuel consumption.

Awesome. What boost are u running?

 

Any install pics?

 

Are u using the stock cooler and exhaust??

.

[udovdh]

Am 14.1.2019 um 19:07 schrieb stylophonic:

Awesome. What boost are u running?

 

Any install pics?

 

Are u using the stock cooler and exhaust??

.

 

Dunno about boost figures. Where can I find out about them?

Would my UltraGuage be able to display boost pressure?

Pics can be found in VVT's fakebook.

FMIC was installed. Custom downpipe was installed.

 

 

 

[stylophonic]

Ok nice..

 

How much did he charge for the full work?

[udovdh]

I guess that info needs not to be shared openly.
Think about a gen five turbo.

Think about a custom downpipe.

Think about the custom FMIC piping.

Think about a 450Nm clutch and flywheel for 4-cylinder engine (required to make clutch work).

Think about bigger brakes in the front on `fresh` fusees to allow the bigger size brakes.

Think about the VNT converted (not A2) firmware for the ECU and the tune itself.

Think about two weeks of work.

Bearbeitet 25. Januar 2019 von udovdh

[stylophonic]

ok thank you for that.. the turbo is capable of 2bar.. 

will you change injectors and go for more power?

iv just bought this turbo for my 1.9pd a2.. will fit it myself.

congrats on doing this.

regarding the clutch though.. its for the 4pot... are you using a 3pot flywheel??
are you getting any gearbox chatter?

[udovdh]

On 2/7/2019 at 8:58 PM, stylophonic said:

will you change injectors and go for more power?

 

The `reference` Lupo with 200+ HP has injectors with bigger holes.

This setup has some issues at idle which I'd like to avoid.

Currently more power is not really needed. I simply need to find out how quick the car currently is.

 

On 2/7/2019 at 8:58 PM, stylophonic said:

regarding the clutch though.. its for the 4pot... are you using a 3pot flywheel??
are you getting any gearbox chatter?

 

VVT fitted a 4pot flywheel, this was necessary to make the 400NM clutch setup fit.

I am not aware of gearbox (`GRJ`) chatter; I do notice a small idle issue where the 'roudness' of the engine's rhythm can go to a  two-step rhythm.

A little throttle fixes this.

A 1.9 engine will not have this issue I guess.

[udovdh]

VVT put he car on their website: https://www.vanvughttuning.nl/listings/vw-fox-1-4-tdi-160-pk/

Car is running fine.

Now has the ARL head bolts, new pistons and rod bearings (because of miniscule crack).

Also a full stainless 2.5" exhaust was fitted. (made response a tiny bit quicker)
 

~160 KM/h at less than 3000 RPM is kinda nice. (original car does 120 KM/h on the GPS at roughly 3000 RPM)

 

[Nagah]

Am 25.1.2019 um 14:52 schrieb udovdh:

I guess that info needs not to be shared openly.
Think about a gen five turbo.

Think about a custom downpipe.

Think about the custom FMIC piping.

Think about a 450Nm clutch and flywheel for 4-cylinder engine (required to make clutch work).

Think about bigger brakes in the front on `fresh` fusees to allow the bigger size brakes.

Think about the VNT converted (not A2) firmware for the ECU and the tune itself.

Think about two weeks of work.

 

Unfortunately.

But I do not really know why people always make a secret about pricing (except when you got a secret special low special price).

It is obvious that it's not cheap but would be interesting to know if it is in the "can possibly afford zone" or beyond.

 

Not that I need to know in this particular case but I am very interested in various builds worldwide and curious how my mates are charged in other parts of the world.

Sometimes you even find a place where you can get good quality for very reasonable prices, but not with all the secrecy.

[udovdh]

17 hours ago, Nagah said:

 

Unfortunately.

 

 

Why?

Every project is different and pricing like https://www.vanvughttuning.nl/chiptuning/prijzen/

just tells some benchmarks.

I explained some extra work (besides the power enhancements).

I guess you can do the math.

 

On Facebook, when VVT posted about the car, some people said it was a waste of money. (i.e. to invest in a car with low resale value)

They do not understand the situation of a rust free chassis, an engine that runs well and a car that fits the user.

 

[Nagah]

There are always people that tell you that is waste of money. I heard this veeeeeeery often. ?

[udovdh]

Some flexible elbows/joints were replaced due to leaks that had developed.
Tune was adjusted slightly.
170 HP. Same NM if I recall correctly.

Fox feels like a new car again, accelerates harder than before. (will get timings in spring!)

[udovdh]

174.6 HP / 369.3 Nm to be exact. Tiny bit more smoke.

Bearbeitet 4. Februar 2021 von udovdh

[Nagah]

370Nm is a lot of torque.

I guess you will need a LSD now, since you should experience spinning wheels up to 3rd gear now.

[udovdh]

Sometimes it does spin in 3rd yes.

So I did some research:

 

At the quaife website I found: https://www.quaife.co.uk/quaife-atb-limited-slip-differential-launched-vag-cars-using-02j-b-transmission/ and https://shop.quaife.co.uk/audi-a3-02j-quaife-atb-helical-lsd-differential-1257

This means we need their number QDF26R for the GRJ gearbox.

With that info I find this local supplier: https://www.motorsportparts.nl/volkswagen/golf-v/aandrijving-en-diff/Quaife-torsen-sper-VW-Polo-Golf-Mk5-02J-B,-02R,-02S-6-speed-2004+-c-w-bolt-kit- for a kit of diff and bolts.

Requires about a day of work to be fitted.

[Nagah]

Yes!

Unfortunately quite a hefty pricetag.

[udovdh]

Does anybody here have access to info with the part number of the (conical) bearings at either side of the differential in a GRJ gearbox?

As these should be not too expensive, I'd replace them when the diff goes in.

[Phoenix A2]

For GRJ Gearbox:

Conical Roller Bearing (Differential) 41x68x17,5 - 096 323 981 P

 

[udovdh]

Thanks, I acquired the bearings.

Later this year I'll obtain the diff and find a place to have it fitted.

[Spits]

 

Am 9.2.2019 um 14:07 schrieb udovdh:

 

The `reference` Lupo with 200+ HP has injectors with bigger holes.

This setup has some issues at idle which I'd like to avoid.

Currently more power is not really needed. I simply need to find out how quick the car currently is.

 

 

VVT fitted a 4pot flywheel, this was necessary to make the 400NM clutch setup fit.

I am not aware of gearbox (`GRJ`) chatter; I do notice a small idle issue where the 'roudness' of the engine's rhythm can go to a  two-step rhythm.

A little throttle fixes this.

A 1.9 engine will not have this issue I guess.

A question about the 4pot flywheel.

In my search for a replacement SMF flywheel (to ditch the ATL DMF,) I'd understand that a 4 pot SMF is creating (unwanted) unbalancing of the 3 pot....... that's why I installed an AMF SMF, which unfortunely only takes a small diameter (215mm) clutch.

 

I take it you're driven your tuned set up, or enough at least, to say if there's vibration in any of the rev range? Woul'd you be so kind to give info what 4pot flywheel (partnumbers) is used and/or if the flywheel is re-balanced for a 3pot?

 

Thanx!

[udovdh]

On 6/14/2021 at 7:56 AM, Spits said:

I take it you're driven your tuned set up, or enough at least, to say if there's vibration in any of the rev range? Woul'd you be so kind to give info what 4pot flywheel (partnumbers) is used and/or if the flywheel is re-balanced for a 3pot?

The car drives OK, no real (extra) vibration during 'normal' use that I can discern.

Only issue is that sometimes, when the engine is idling in stationary mode, the cadence goes to a 2-step hop-hop rhythm; a little accelerator fixes that. Also (de)clutch sometimes helps.

 

Can a 4-pot flywheel be machined towards 3-pot-ness? (adding versus subtracting material)

If the only issue is the one I described, then is it worth doing so w.r.t. saving the engine?

[biohaufen]

This 2-step rhythm can happen if MWB 23 is out of range.

Have you swapped EU3 injectors to a EU4 engine? (or EU4 inj. to EU3 engine?)

This can be fixed if you adjust the idle duration map, I had this exact problem when I ran EU3 injectors without adjusting the BIP map correctly.